Again, like I stated above, ‘a deer caught in the headlights.’ LOL! We’re talking about a woman who’s first language isn’t English and she’s being asked her thought on ‘why she thinks men like her work [BL], coming from Japan where no man would even admit to liking it…0_0. I think I might choke on that Q myself [if I were a Japanese mangaka]. ^_^; ** that meshes with her gay audience.** Her gay audience in the states…right? Because there is a marginal, if not downright miniscule, male audience her in Japan. ^^

***Why shouldn’t gay men enjoy Kizuna? Because it wasn’t written specifically for them?*** I don’t think anyone was questioning that, perhaps if you were asking a western creator this, a better answer might have come to light. ** Because Kadaka isn’t comfortable with the idea of including gay men in her audience*** again, I hear the ‘wee bit of anger there’ that has influenced this debate from the beginning.

I don’t think Kodaka ever meant to say, I DON”T LIKE GAY MEN READING MY WORK IT MAKES ME UNCOMFORTABLE, EW, I honestly think it was a point of being unable to express herself logically. ‘Gay men read my work? I don’t know what to say about this, it makes me uncomfortable because I cannot give an answer on this, I have no basis from my own experience at home to tell you what I might think?’

Not speaking for Kodaka, but I’m just saying [as someone whose own words have been taken way out of context in the last 48 hours] this can and does happen. 0_0.

-Tina

In Muslim cultures they don’t understand the *social* stigma towards men who have sex with men, so, in order to be “gay”, a man not only has to have sex with men, but to be a transexual who wants to be a woman.

In Japan it seems like gay is being coupled with promiscuous. So, in order to be “gay” a man not only has to have sex with men, but *lots* of men.

In Bali it seems they’ve coupled “gay” with pedophilia.

And so it goes.

I tend to see bisexuality as part of the gay experience, with the usual variances on the times of discriminations one faces (most notably the “anything that moves” stereotype — I remember seeing some daytime talk show with a married couple where the wife was bisexual, the host kept asking the husband how he could trust her not to cheat on him with a woman, as if her bisexuality made her more prone to cheat than a heterosexual wife). Bisexuals can face discrimination within the LGBT community much like transgendered people. Besides, if we’re talking about relationships, yeah a bisexual in a same-sex relationship is living a gay experience.

As for Trick and OTRFK, they both follow the same conflicts — guy A has a massive (yet presumed unreturnable) crush on guy B, guy B makes the wrong first impression when he meets guy A, lots of angst and unintentional hurt follows until guy A realizes that guy B really likes him (and that he himself is likable) and guy B works up the nerve to apologize for the behavior that caused the false impression. The trimmings are different but the conflict and characters’ journey are very much the same.

By depicting men who love men in a positive light without recognizing them as gay, she doesn’t do any disservice to gay men. Because gay men are *also* part of the larger set of men who love men. Who are, thus, being served by being portrayed positively.

Get this clear. She is from a different culture. She does not understand the concept of “gay” the way we do. She probably sees people trying to make her characters into “gay” men as cheapening the love they share because, as she sees it, they could never love another man aside from their “one true and only”. In the same way she doesn’t see her characters as het, because they could never love a woman, not because they are gay, but because that woman would not be their “one true and only.”

BTW, just to continue the analogy, imagine the Christian going on and on about how the Nazis persecuted *religious* people and how evil they were for doing so. Without once pointing out that, despite the fact that the Nazi’s persecuted *religious* people, the Jews *really* got the short end of the stick.

I guess it’s all about perception, if you look at Kodaka’s comments as a shrug with a “Well, gay men might look my work, but they weren’t my target audience.” or a “I don’t know why gay men might read my work and I’m uncomfortable with the idea.” My initial reaction (and Christopher’s as well) was the former.

Kodaka may be bringing an image of gay men as cool, sexy and kick ass but she undermines any good that may do with comments like that… at least not until can make an argument about why gay men shouldn’t like her work that meshes with her gay audience.

That makes me realize that, from where I’m coming from, there’s a key question that hasn’t been answered in a satisfying way. Why shouldn’t gay men enjoy Kizuna? Because it wasn’t written specifically for them? Because Kadaka isn’t comfortable with the idea of including gay men in her audience? It’s not because of themes of “pain and deep longing” because a gay male audience can certainly relate to that.

It’s been said previously, there’s a difference between catering to a market and making a subset of your audience that they’re not welcome. To move to another media, what if Russel T Davies reacted to the largely female audience of Showtime’s Queer as Folk by talking in interviews about how he couldn’t understand why women would watch his show and how they couldn’t possibly relate to his characters?

Or bisexual?

“The foundation comes from the same place and regardless of the target, it hurts us all.”

Say what?

How does it come from the same place?

I just find it interesting. Because there is always, in every gay group I’ve ever been part of, online or in real life, an Angry Lesbian(tm). A lesbian who is hoppin’ mad about our heterosexist society and not afraid to yell, scream or stab someone to prove it. Yet the guys who are most, literally, hurt by homophobia are the gay guys and I’ve yet to met one with the same brick-in-the-face aura of sheer fury as an Angry Lesbian(tm).

To me it’s like watching a Christian and Jewish talk about Nazi Germany. The Christian is hot and bothered about his congregation being snarled at by the Nazis(cause the Nazi’s want to supplant the worship of Christ) while the Jew just sits quietly, not saying a thing about how his whole congregation was slaughtered.

Sometimes you just have an urge to tell the Christian to STFU. Even though, technically, they were both persecuted for being part of a religion.

When representatives from the MSM community start knocking on mangaka’s doors, then they can have a nice long talk about how MSM are portrayed in manga. Until then, I’m with Tina, it ain’t about gay men and it ain’t for gay men, so no need to claim and blame.

Looking at the stories, though, I disagree that BL is exclusively about MSM. (Now at this point, the discussion hinges on terminology so I’ll spell mine out — I’m looking at MSM strictly as the “down low” culture because anytime you try to publicly have a relationship with someone of the same sex, you’re living the gay experience — that’s how people see you and that’s how you’re treated.) Desire comes to mind, with Toru slowly realizing that there’s genuine love to be found in his relationship with Ryoji and struggling to come out to himself. Similarly, I don’t see a big difference between Only the Ring Finger Knows and Trick, a gay movie. Both follow the same conflicts and character journeys, with setting and sexual content being the major differential. Sure, a title like Gravitation doesn’t reflect the reality of what a famous couple would actually encounter, but that’s the nature of escapist entertainment there’s plenty of gay work that doesn’t reflect reality, either.

BTW, why are lesbians so upset over homophobia anyway? Lesbian affections are so accepted as to be featured on prime time TV. Lesbians don’t suffer from bashing at anywhere near the rate as gay men. Notice all the media that use lesbian couples to “humanize” homosexuality? Want to make homosexuals palatable and give exposure to their cause? Use lesbians!

Well, for one thing, homophobia includes lesbians but why should a lesbian care about homophobia directed at gay men? I’d say for the same reason why I should care about homophobia directed at lesbians (which includes the queer equivalent of “model minority” stereotyping) — the foundation comes from the same place and regardless of the target, it hurts us all. Saying ‘that doesn’t affect me, so I don’t care’ really just enables the oppressor.