Several of my German correspondents have contacted me to let me know that vol. 1 of Ayano Yamane’s Finder has been “indexed” in Germany. That means that it has been deemed harmful to minors and not only is its distribution restricted, it cannot be “advertised”—which means that bloggers in Germany can’t even mention it, which is why they passed the news along to me. Here’s the gist of the law:
A board of 12 representatives consisting of 8 different social organisations (e.g. artistic and literary community, entertainment industry, youth welfare, teachers, religious groups), 3 representatives of the federal states as well as the chairwoman of the BPjM, examines the respective object. If the board, with a majority of 2/3 of the members, decides that the object has a content dangerous for young people (”jugendgefährdend”), it enters its name into the “list of youth-endangering media” (”Liste jugendgefährdender Medien”), generally referred to as the “index”. Distributors of that medium are then no longer permitted to sell, rent out or even present this object in public or to broadcast it. The same goes for advertising for this object. Violations of these restrictions will be punished under German jurisdiction.
(More details here.) For some reason, Spiegel Online could mention it, though (article is in German). Tokyopop Germany publishes the book in Germany, but the link to vol. 1 has been removed from their website, although the series overview and links to other volumes remain.
Jonathan, who first sent me the news, says
The exact reason for the indexing hasn’t been sent to Tokyopop.de yet. The problem was that although it was marked 18+ (it as), minors still were able to buy it. The reason for that was because it’s never mandatory to check ID until a manga gets indexed. It’s all voluntary. Now one might question the system as is, but I think one can agree that Finder shouldn’t get into the hands of children.
That last statement is true enough, but the difference between Germany and the U.S., I guess, lies in the question of who enforces it.
Finder is hard to find (sorry) in the U.S. as well, but for different reasons: It was published by the now-defunct BeBeautiful, part of CPM Manga, and as you can see from the Amazon link at left, the law of supply and demand is in full effect.
[...] Legal | Brigid Alverson reports the first volume of Ayano Yamane’s yaoi series Finder has been added to Germany’s “list of youth-endangering media.” Under the country’s Youth Protection Law, the manga, published by Tokyopop’s German division, can’t be distributed to minors or even advertised. According to Alverson, that “means that bloggers in Germany can’t even mention it.” [MangaBlog] [...]
[...] When will they learn? [...]
[...] publicação, lançada por lá pela Tokyopop Germany, teve sua venda proibida em lojas especializadas e sites germânicos. Mas a restrição vai além: o mangá não pode ser nem mesmo emprestado ou exposto em público; [...]
This was brought up at German BL publisher the Wild Side’s blog
http://wildsideverlag.wordpress.com/2009/05/20/finder-indiziert
But I was unable to read German so didn’t understand what ‘indexing’ meant.
Thanks.
Yeah. I would think Germany of all places would have learned how bad it is for the government to come down and essentially start banning books. Wasn’t that long ago that they tossed books with ’subversive’ material like homosexuality into fires. Crap. The bastards in the government tossed homosexuals themselves into the fires.
Though maybe that “Distributors of that medium are then no longer permitted to sell, rent out or even present this object in public or to broadcast it. The same goes for advertising for this object. Violations of these restrictions will be punished under German jurisdiction.” isn’t as bad as it sounds. Still it sure sounds like the book is effectively banned unless it is more like selling a Hustler or NC-17 movie with the ID comment. Still, disturbing language used there, especially since the issue is homosexuality.
Yeah. I would think Germany of all places would have learned how bad it is for the government to come down and essentially start banning books.
1) It’s not a complete “ban”, it’s more like severe restrictions on marketing.
2) “The government” does not “come down”. It’s an institution that examines specific works only after their release (since a pre-emptive censorship is unconstitutional), and only at the request of child services or private persons.
3) They did not just “start” with this practice. The BPjM has existed for many decades, and has put various works on the index in that time. Finder isn’t the first. Nor is it an especially incomprehensible decision.
Wasn’t that long ago that they tossed books with ’subversive’ material like homosexuality into fires. Crap. The bastards in the government tossed homosexuals themselves into the fires.
4) The Federal Republic of Germany is not the Third Reich. It is based on a different constitution and none of the bastards currently in the government were in the government sixty years ago. “They” did not do anything like that.
5) Do not accuse the government of Germany of homophobia because one institution thinks a manga that glorifies rape should not get into the hands of children.
6) There are a number of openly homosexual politicians in Germany, such as Klaus Wowereit, the mayor of Berlin, or Guido Westerwelle, leader of the political party FDP. Homosexuality is not a taboo, homosexuals are not unrepresented or silenced. This is not to say that there is complete equality, but you and Xenos seem to think that just homosexual content is enough to “ban” a manga in Germany, like homosexuality itself is frowned upon or a crime, when there are plenty of unbanned yaoi manga currently on the market, as well as openly homosexual people among “the bastards in the government”.
We were discussing this on the Yamane Ayano community last week, and one of the German members pointed us to the TokyoPop German forum where the moderator appeared to have portions of the letter sent to TokyoPop about the matter.
http://www.comics-in-leipzig.de/Forum/thread.php?threadid=26357&threadview=0&hilight=&hilightuser=0&page=55
The post is by Jo Kaps, halfway down the page.
According to other people on our community, this type of law is very strictly enforced. Hellsing 4 and 6 are also indexed and are never seen, though they’re still sold. One German bookseller has told us she’s pulled the books but is still selling them to adults with an ID, and they can be special ordered. But the Austrians and Swiss members have said the Finder books are still openly being sold there because they don’t care what the Germans do, so TokyoPop will still be able to sell there as usual.
The law does seem to be a crapshoot, since things are indexed if they’re brought to the attention of the indexers. Otherwise anything is available for anyone to see since ratings and enforcement of them are voluntary.
The bastards in the government tossed homosexuals themselves into the fires.
The people nor the government in Germany are like that – what a ridiculous thing to bring up.
[...] Fuentes: (ANN|MangaBlog) [...]
Thats the stupidest thing I have ever heard – I am glad we dont have ‘laws’ like that where i am.
It’s not stupid. It is all about keeping materials intended for strictly people over the age of 18 out of minor’s reach. Like they are supposed to. Finder and other materials, such as pornographic magazines, will still be sold just more of under the counter affair and being asked to present I.D etc. Tokyopop being told not to sell is possibly because of the breaches of the R18 laws that turned their attention to this particular manga
It’s nothing to do with anyone’s viewpoints on sexuality at all.
“The bastards in the government tossed homosexuals themselves into the fires.”
“The people nor the government in Germany are like that – what a ridiculous thing to bring up.”
- No, it’s not ridiculous. And they’re not bastards. They do this to protect underage people, which is their DUTY! It’s absolutely correct what they’re doing.
“It’s not stupid. It is all about keeping materials intended for strictly people over the age of 18 out of minor’s reach. Like they are supposed to.”
- Exactly. It would be plain WRONG if governments just accepted anything just because of the f*****g political correctness. Protecting children and teenagers is something that any goverment has to do- and that is all the German government is doing, nothing more, nothing less. I wish other countries would follow Germany’s example and do more for protection of minors. The underage are EXTREMELY endangered nowadays.
Holy, I love this series!! I do!! And I want it soooo bad I wanna cry everytime I see it online!! But how can they something like that. Isn’t this just another side of the whole “,,children” are too easily influenced by what they see and read – so let’s ban it!” ordeal?! It’s really stupid really. Of course there are SOME who are easily influenced, but honestly it’s not like a hardcore yaoi fan hasn’t seen ra*e and bond*ge before. And if they are so easily influenced then maybe their parents should keep a closer check on them??!! Though I myself have bought yaoi that was 18+ when I was like 16-17… and it’s not like there isn’t enough hardcore, perverted comics around the world that origninate form Europe.
But I totally GET it, the whole “this isn’t something a person under 18 should see”, but I still think baning it is kinda over the top. CM’s late at night when the youngest are (supposedly) asleep, and in places minors don’t go.
Though, I dont know how strict Germany is when it comes to banning litterature… hm…
Well, as long as they can show ID then there’s no problem really… they just have to wait. The only problem with that is:
IT’S OUT OF PRINT FOR F**K’S SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(I seriously feel like crying when I think about it TT_TT)
From my point of view the mistake in the system is no legal obligation for sellers to ID the buyers. In Poland we have such restriction for alcohol, smokes and anything 18+. There are sneacky controls and big money loses as penatlies. It seems to be working fine as a compromise between freedom of individual and society. Not saying its a 100% effective but a social campiagn few years back made a big difference.
I agree that Finder (which I ADORE) shouldn’t be in plain view of minors (bit of hipocrisy here I’ve read in at 16
those who realy want it will get in anyway ;P but at least it shouldn’t be to easy) BUT restriction on even discussing it is way to much of a intervention!
“But how can they something like that. Isn’t this just another side of the whole “,,children” are too easily influenced by what they see and read – so let’s ban it!” ordeal?! It’s really stupid really. Of course there are SOME who are easily influenced, but honestly it’s not like a hardcore yaoi fan hasn’t seen ra*e and bond*ge before…”
- Children ARE easily influenced. Practically EVERY child and many teenagers as well. That’s a fact and just natural.
All governments should take such strict measures to protect their minors. Plus, it’s NOT that you can’t get the book if you’re old enough. It’s NOT banned, dammit, READ before you write a comment! Everybody who’s old enough can still easily get it, so where’s the stupid problem?? It’s just MINORS they’re trying to protect here, which is not only right, but the ONLY right thing to do! Gosh, there actually ARE people in this world who think yaoi, especially harcore yaoi, is harmful to minors, and- gasp!- they`re right in thinking that!
And yes, I do like yaoi, too, but it doesn’t change the fact that Viewfinder, among others, is NOT for minors.
“Yeah. I would think Germany of all places would have learned how bad it is for the government to come down and essentially start banning books. Wasn’t that long ago that they tossed books with ’subversive’ material like homosexuality into fires. Crap. The bastards in the government tossed homosexuals themselves into the fires.”
-And THIS is the stupidest thing anyone could say about the matter at hand. This crap is not even worth a comment. Except: GROW UP, moron.
-sigh- The only point I agree that has been said is make it the law to have to show ID when buying ANY type of adult material (if it says 18+ on the cover). I can tell you right now that there’s thousands of 18+ things being sold that aren’t yaoi that is quite “harmful”.
“Gosh, there actually ARE people in this world who think yaoi, especially harcore yaoi, is harmful to minors, and- gasp!- they`re right in thinking that!”
Yaoi, in the widespread context, is NOT “harmful”. 18+ yaoi, is NOT “harmful”. 18+ yaoi that glorifies rape and stuff would be considered “harmful”. and -GASP- straight manga is the same way! Sorry but that comment there bugged me a bit.
I think they should make stores ID 18+ manga, no matter what it is. I really do. Then we wouldn’t have these problems and Finder could still be rightly advertised.
Yaoi, in the widespread context, is NOT “harmful”. 18+ yaoi, is NOT “harmful”. 18+ yaoi that glorifies rape and stuff would be considered “harmful”. and -GASP- straight manga is the same way! Sorry but that comment there bugged me a bit.
- Your problem. You’re exactly like the other fanatics who don’t accept that there are people who have something against things that you like. There are many people who don’t like what I like, but that’s not my problem and I live with it without bashing them. It’s – GASP! – their friggin’ right to think whatever they want, because this SHOULD be a free world. It’s not like we’re all going to die just because a yaoi title is not freely advertised any more. There isn’t any problem with that, so grow up and get over it.
And: Yes, yaoi CAN be harmful or at least disturbing or whatever to minors, especially 18+, and of course especially if it depicts rape. There is a reason why 18+ is called 18+: because it’s for people who are at least 18! GASP! And yes, I know that there are many other 18+ things that are harmful, not just yaoi and not just manga. And yes, there should be stricter regulations on those things as well. The world needs stricter regulations nowadays. As long as 18+, be it films, books, manga or whatever, is still available to those old enough, where’s the problem?? We’re not kids, so why be against stricter regulations? They don’t concern us adults. They just help protect minors, which is RIGHT and IMPORTANT. And no minor is going to die just because they can’t get their hands on 18+ stuff.
“I think they should make stores ID 18+ manga, no matter what it is. I really do. Then we wouldn’t have these problems and Finder could still be rightly advertised.”
- Again, there’s no problem if Finder isn’t “rightly” advertised. You can still buy it, so calm down.
“As long as 18+, be it films, books, manga or whatever, is still available to those old enough, where’s the problem?? We’re not kids, so why be against stricter regulations? They don’t concern us adults. They just help protect minors, which is RIGHT and IMPORTANT. And no minor is going to die just because they can’t get their hands on 18+ stuff.”
You have point here… Never really thought about that.
Anathae, you said:
“BUT restriction on even discussing it is way to much of a intervention!”
And I assure you, the “bloggers cannot even mention it” part is plain wrong. I don’t know where it came from, but it’s nonsense. The manga and the indexing, too, are even still heavily discusses in Tokyopop Germany’s official forum. German websites etc. do report on indexing cases, including this. It’s just a misunderstanding that no one bothered correcting, sadly, because it makes the whole thing sound much worse than it is.
For fair measure, I’m currently living in Stuttgart, Germany. While the government does clamp down on certain things more than the us’s does (it is a socialist country, afterall) There certainly is MUCH much more yaoi and shonen ai on the shelves of your token mega-bookstore than in the states. Some of it is shrink wrapped (but a minority at that) and many have the 18+ label on them, but still, it is far more prevalent than anywhere i saw in the states (including but not limited to nyc, san francisco, philadelphia, etc)
[...] publicação, lançada por lá pela Tokyopop Germany, teve sua venda proibida em lojas especializadas e sites germânicos. Mas a restrição vai além: o mangá não pode ser nem mesmo emprestado ou exposto em público; [...]
how interesting..which makes me wonder…literary works from authors such as de Sade, Pauline Réage, Sacher-Masoch, are they also ´banned´ from the public view? (Not to be blogged about, thus making the Free Wide Web a restricted area, a thought control area. Brave New World, I must say). Germany has learned nothing. It´s still this idea of ´wholesomeness´ of white polished milk smiles and red cheeks from good, hard exercise. Do they know (yes of course they do) that placing a restriction on things, the more tantalising they will be? Duh and obviously, yes. Samizdat, anyone?