At Sporadic Sequential, John Jakala opens up a can of whupass on the all-manga-looks-alike crowd. David Welsh adds his list of manga creators who eschew the big-eyes-big-hair style. And ChunHyang72 drops in to make an excellent point:
What bothers me most about the “manga is crap” screeds: the hostility directed at manga readers, especially girls and women. Snarky spandex fans need to stop arguing that manga only appeals to squealing 15 year old girls who wouldn’t know Frank Miller from Francis Bacon. NOT TRUE. Those squealing 15 year old girls you’re dissing… they’re actually buying comic books. Lots of them, in fact.
She’s right. The teenagers that I know who read manga take their comics just as seriously as do the spandex and art-comix crowds, so even if they were the only readers of manga, I don’t see what the problem is. As it happens, they’re not; anyone with half a brain knows that there’s a huge diversity of manga out there that is attracting a wide range of readers. As Jakala points out, even the most visible manga, the ones that hit the Booklist, don’t really share that moe style. To claim otherwise isn’t just ignorant, it’s deliberately obtuse.
UPDATE: Dirk Deppey weighs in as well, pointing out that this is really about shelf space as much as anything else.
Haha, there are no girls on the internet
At this point I feel sorry for American comics. I see one little bookshelf cubby compared to an entire full bookshelf full of manga.
Also, Bob Holt and Jacob Covery that Jakkala writes about are… how can I say this?… MORONS!
Can any guy off the street distinguish between Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko? NO! It’s the same thing for manga and American comics of today. I think what they are going through is a combination of embarrassment and frustration.
Why do any manga fan, girl or otherwise, care about what the Comic Book Guy think about their reading habits? This moronic hate is entirely one-sided. This kind of mindless flame is just making American comics that much more attractive to the young manga fans. I guess all this will just hasten the demise of Ameri-comi that much faster.
I see one little bookshelf cubby compared to an entire full bookshelf full of manga.
Don’t visit ‘comic shops’ much eh Jack? In comic shops, manga gets a few endcaps and maybe one row of space.
The floppy medium [which comprise a huge portion of western comics] is not supported by bookstores at all; only the collections [perfect bind]. The manga medium is better suited for bookstores. It’s not matter of manga is more popular and that’s why American comics are representin’ in the B&N…at first it was a matter of what was more ergonomically adjustable at the stores, but now—it’s just where most manga fans shop—ergo, you have more manga.
Errors – t’s not matter of manga is more popular and that’s why American comics aren’t representin’ in the B&N… ^_-
You’re right about the floppies, but what’s interesting is that bookstores carry such a small selection of trade paperbacks of American comics, by which I mean non-manga graphic novels as well as superheroes. It’s about a quarter the size of the manga section, and because of all the different trim sizes, it always looks really chaotic and it’s hard to find a specific work. So I know what Jack means—American comics don’t get much love in bookstores.
Which is a shame, really. I was in Million Year Picnic in Harvard Square yesterday and they had a ton of books that Serious Bookstore Readers would probably enjoy and buy—IF they knew they existed. There were some nice retrospectives of classic newspaper strips like Popeye, Steve Canyon and Dick Tracy, a lovely edition of old EC comics, a good selection of Joann Sfar, some really offbeat newer comics, all good stuff. I could see any of their titles selling well in my local Borders, but none of it is there. Which is our loss.
Tivome: My comment wasn’t intended as a swipe at American comics, just an expression of frustration about the misogyny behind some of the “manga is crap” comments. A certain segment of the comic community likes to dismiss manga because “only girls like it,” as if there’s something inherently wrong about a product that girls and women enjoy. (Manga readers do it too, I might add—just look at the way male fans write off series that have become popular with fujoshi, as if Saiyuki is somehow less cool because female readers like it.)
While I don’t read a lot of tights-and-capes kind of stuff, I do actively follow a number of other series, from Mouse Guard and Fables to The Red Star, The Killer, and Usagi Yojimbo. I was especially bummed by Jacob Covey’s comments because I’ve been actively collecting The Complete Peanuts as well as some of the titles in the Ignatz Series. Way to insult a loyal customer!
BTW, glad to hear that the Million Year Picnic hasn’t yet been replaced by an Abercrombie & Fitch or a Starbucks.
Tina:
You’re right.
I’m just saying when Joe Quesada goes to a Borders or BN, he asks a clerk:
JQ “Where’s the graphic novels section?”
C: “They’re located in the cubby behind that huge manga bookshelf, you can’t miss it sir!”
Make of my debut playwright skills what you will.
Tina: [cynical, but smiling] Why would Joe Quesada go into a B and N and ask where the graphic novel section is, when for nearly twenty years most major chain book stores only had a graphic novel section because of collections from the big three… [Hands Jack a wet nap] Wipe your nose kid, bookstores didn’t just start carrying graphic novels the minute the manga-medium hit the US market.
^_^ —Sarcasm aside, what you seem to suggest was that manga is better and that’s why they’re kicking ass in bookstores. ^^; What I was saying was, take that scenario you’ve written and apply it to 2 out of 3 local comic and gaming shops, and you’ll get the opposite. Where’s your manga section? – We have two rounders by the door, and that cardboard stand-up there by the anime shelf.
It boils down to who shops where and to each shop their own customer catering. To be honest, the only thing I see western publishers pushing at the bookstores are the pricey collector-collections and special editions. You can get those ‘prestige size’ GN’s at the comic shop where they fit the shelves rather nicely, standing up on display, like they were designed to do. They look out of place at bookstores, and always will.
Does it mean they suck? Of course not—it just means they’re for a different storefront, and designed accordingly.
I think you’re not understanding me now… (and don’t confuse my numbering things with being “argumentative” or “flamey”, I’m just trying to be clear)
1. I said you’re right and I meant it. Comic shops and bookstores are two different animals.
2. You’re reading too deep into my playwright skills… I have no understanding of the history of graphic novel sections in bookstores, all I am saying is that at major bookstores you see huge sections of manga compared to little tiny cubbies of American comics. I think JQ (and big American comic publishers) must feel “pwned” just a lil bit.
3. I don’t believe I insinuated that either American comics or manga were better in my 2 posts, I am trying to say American comics must be jealous of the manga creep.
4. I like comics overall and although right now I enjoy manga way more than American comics, I dig American comics too.
5. I was originally going to write up that comic stores are cool but let’s face it — they are a minuscule fraction compared to normal bookstores. And no, I don’t feel like debating here on Brigid’s blog but I do feel this is an interesting subject.
So yeah, I agree with your comments 100%.
And no, I don’t feel like debating here on Brigid’s blog but I do feel this is an interesting subject.
Jack I like you, but you’re making my head hurt. If I thought were being flamey, I’d just ignore you—and it’s ok to point/counter-point each other without it being a flaming match. I never read into anything, I thought what we were doing was just…having a conversation. 0_0.
*steps back and refrains from doing this again.*
I don’t want to hi-jack this thread is why I don’t want to talk about it here. Let’s wait until Brigid writes a story up and we can go to town.
On the internet, a lot of people sound “flamey” when not even trying — especially when quoted. I was just being clear because I don’t want to disgrace myself on Brigid’s blog.
Jack, Tina, you guys are fine. Hijack away, I’m enjoying the discussion!
Tina: “To be honest, the only thing I see western publishers pushing at the bookstores are the pricey collector-collections and special editions.”
If by “pushing” you mean promoting, that may be true. But the chain bookstores I’ve been to have also carried plenty of regular TP collections of floppies. In fact, my local Borders probably carries more American GN’s than do either of the local comic shops.
“You can get those ‘prestige size’ GN’s at the comic shop where they fit the shelves rather nicely, standing up on display, like they were designed to do. They look out of place at bookstores, and always will.”
I don’t really see the difference here. In comic shops GNs, whether regular or “prestige size,” can be either shelved cover out or spine out, and if most of them are shelved cover out, then either the stock of GNs is tiny or the store is huge. The same thing is true of bookstores.